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125 Discussion Forum
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Return to the Forum List  Sail Types | Hi wondering if sails can be mylar for nationals
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| | | Re: Sail Types | The mylar sail proposal was only first discussed at the last Nationals with the talk generally favourable. It would take two consecutive conferences to approve any proposal to allow mylar sails which means that if it is proposed for fist vote at Esperance and then second vote in Melbourne the following year, mylar could be allowed for the following Nationals. This is the normal process for any rule change.
Vic 125 Assoc is planning to have a mylar main and jib made shortly as a trial set to be first tested here in Vic and then sent around state by state over the first half of next season prior to Esperance.
If all goes well and there are no unforseen issues, we plan to propose the rule change allowing mylar for first vote at the Esperance National Conference.
We shall post pictures of the trial set as soon as we get them on a boat.
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| | Re: Sail Types | Mylar sails??? Excuse my ignorance but how is this going to make the class more affordable?? Question to VICTORIA - how is this going to improve the class and get bums into boats?
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| | Re: Sail Types | Hi Jen
The open discussion that took place during the measurers meeting at Henley around mylar sails covered the following:
Rational: To update the sail plan and make it more marketable to youth sailors...not neccecarily existing sailors, similar to what the Tasar has been through.
Cost-There would be minimal difference in cost
Performance- No difference in the performance of the 125 is envisaged.
Retention of Color Panel was seen as important as is part of the 125s "brand image" and there was no issue in applying this to mylar.
The SA Association was able to call in a sailmaker (from the bar) for this discussion and his opinions are captured above.
As Jim mentioned, this has not yet been proposed for first vote as yet but is definately something that needs further thought and consideration.
Vic has generously proposed to send a test set of sails around at no cost to members so should be applauded for their initiative.
From my own perspective I welcome any ideas that will help us get more bums in boats and help defend us from extinction as a National class.
(I suspect the way to go may be Mylar main with Dacron Jibs for longevity (ala Cherubs)after seeing the flogging jibs copped at Henley)
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| | Re: Sail Types | Bums on Seats!! I might be a bit old fashioned but I think the way to get bums on seats is for 125 members to get off their bums and promote the class. Fiddling with the class will not get bums on seats. Hard work and sacrifice does. The more you fiddle with the boat, the more the boat loses it's identity and no one will know what a 125 is and the more devoted 125 sailers become allienated from the class. The class needs to focus on family sailing and forget about the gungho's. Let the gungho's sail 29ers etc if they want.
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| | Re: Sail Types | Mylar sails will not get people sailing 125's. This is re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
The 125 is a family oriented, learn to sail boat. It is not a high performance skiff...so stop trying to make it one.
We should be looking at ways to keep costs down and encourage home built boats. The 125 fleet will grow if we can encourage affordable, friendly competetive sailing for families. You only need to look at the history of 125 sailing to see the boom periods occured when boats were being built on low budgets in backyards...
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| | Re: Sail Types | It has certainly been sad to watch the 125 class go down the path it has over recent years. I first got interested in the 125 class when I was 13. I had just come out of sabots and was looking for the next class to move into. I remember seeing a tri-fold brochure for the 125 and also remember seeing a 125 magazine with a WA boat roaring downwind, water spraying everywhere, mast bent inside out, thinking to myself how great that would be (I still now can remember the boat on the front and back cover). I looked at those things every day for months until I was able to convince my dad to build a boat for me. I got so hooked on the class before even setting foot in a 125.
I recall as we built the boat we always had a set of rules on hand, always checking and double checking to ensure that every rule was met and that everything was perfect. That first season I crewed for my dad. That is a great aspect of the class and something that should certainly be focused on when trying to get new people. The next year I decided I wanted to compete in the nationals at Darling Point (Brisbane) so I got one of my friends to crew for me. We ended up finishing 2nd overall and winning the juniors. Again the 125 has such a large competitive range that all ages and sizes can sail them. All that being said the one thing that sticks out in my mind about that series were the friends that we made. Everyone was so helpful, always willing to lend a hand, and some advice.
The next few years I sailed other classes including 29ers but always kept the 125 and competed in the state titles every year and nationals where I could. The reason was simply the people and the racing.
You want to know what will put bums on seats? It's is not mylar sails or other new ideas to change the class. It is the people in the class that attract people. I have sailed at the top of 29ers and other classes but kept coming back to the 125 for the racing and the people.
Now I am not so sure... When people put in so much time and hard work into building boats following the rules every step of the way only to have others come out and say that they do not measure years later is a joke. Quite frankly I believe that it will be the end of the amateur built boats. Numbers in NSW and QLD are dropping. Noone wants to build new boats anymore. For the future of the class put all these rules and crap aside and get back to what got us all in the class in the first place. We had a great boat, great family atmosphere and great racing..... There is your marketability right there.
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| | | Re: Sail Types | Hi Jen and Luke,
Luke, I too sailed a timber 125 in my youth, I sailed in my first 125 Nationals in 1980/81 in a fleet of seventy something boats. In those days there were many family units with double trailers and two boats.
Here in Victoria, we have been working very hard over the last few years to encourage the younger sailers to sail 125s. We have growing numbers of enthusiastic youngsters sailing 125s at Black Rock, Chelsea and Williamstown. We are even seeing a growing number of double trailers too as more families get involved.
While there have been a lot of new glass boats added to the Vic fleet recently, there is a demand for good timber boats as first 125s.
The Mylar sail idea came from the youth sailors wanting to by more cool so we thought we would raise the issue. I dont think it would be detremental to the class - just up-dating to keep up with the times.
Jim.
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| | Re: Sail Types | Luke - well said!
I can accept that some of the kids think mylar sails would make them seem more cool, but I don't think that's the case across the board. Plenty of adults who sail the boats are not going to want the extra cost of replacing sails more often, which chances are will be the case with mylar, especially if a mylar jib was used.
We also need to market the 125 to adults and adding something that could make potential sailors worry about costs of sails is going to be detrimental in that respect.
I just have concerns whether mylar will be able to stand up to the flogging that they are likely to get. It's not a problem in 29ers/Tasers/NS14s etc, some of you might say, but that is irrelevant, as far as I am concerned. A 125 is an AFFORDABLE, family-oriented class, which has been kept reasonably simple and free of expensive 'look good' gear for exactly that reason - to keep the class affordable for everyone.
We have to draw the line somewhere. If the kids think mylar sails look cool, what will be next? They will see some 'look good' gear on a skiff somewhere and say "that looked rad, we should do that!" My response would be "go and sail a skiff, if that is what you want". That is not what the essence of the 125 class is all about.
I agree with Derek and Jen - promotion is the key. You can put all sorts of 'look good' gear on a boat, but that won't make the majority of the people buy it. As Luke said, the people in the class are the ones that draw the new sailors in. Take juniors for a sail, have 'come and try 125s' days etc - that is the key to getting more people into the class.
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| | Re: Sail Types | "I first got interested in the 125 class when I was 13. I had just come out of sabots and was looking for the next class to move into. I remember seeing a tri-fold brochure for the 125 and also remember seeing a 125 magazine with a WA boat roaring downwind, water spraying everywhere, mast bent inside out, thinking to myself how great that would be (I still now can remember the boat on the front and back cover). I looked at those things every day for months until I was able to convince my dad to build a boat for me. I got so hooked on the class before even setting foot in a 125."
the problem these days is most of the kids who sail sabots don't get the same impression you did. most kids seem to think the boats dont look very exciting and look outdated compared to 29ers etc.
I really dont think mylar sails would change the performance of the boat, and weve been told that it would cost the same to have mylar as dacron, and the mylar sails would have a longer racing life (but shorter overall life.)
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| | Re: Sail Types | My issue is not whether mylar materials should be allowed. My issue is the current split in the class. Everybody wants more people in the class. I am just not sure that getting new sails for the fleet is the answer. If as much energy was spent encouraging people into the class, as is currently being spent on rules changes, then we would have a thriving 125 class. People behave with a herd mentality, thus the more people we have in the class, the more we will be able to attract. Frankly I am seeing more current sailors turned away than new ones coming in. If you had everyone who owns a 125 sailing it each week, it will create a lot more interest, and get more people wanting to get involved in the class.
The person that I got to crew with me in those first nationals loved it. So he bought a boat the next season. The crew I got for the last state titles at Easter loved sailing the boat and bought it off me at the end of the regatta. Once people get involved in the class, they want to stay.
In regards to the new mylar sails, frankly it is neither here nor there. If mylar is introduced I think you will see a shift towards mylar mains and Dacron jibs. 125 jibs undergo a great deal more stress as a result of flapping than you see in larger classes such as skiffs. Which would drastically reduce the life of mylar jibs. We also have no jib battens to provide structural support for the sail.
Whilst some sail makers swear that a laminated jib is faster than the dacron equivalent, the advantage would only be marginal, if any, in a 125. While Dacron may lack slightly in ultimate speed it is harder wearing.
Suitability really depends on your rig. Dacron is a softer and more pliable cloth thus making it better suited to softer rig setups where you would get a lot of mast bend. However with our current mast setups and stiffeners etc seen in 125s the mylar would probably be preferred for mainsails. For mains, where flogging is less of a problem, mylar or kevlar is nearly always superior to the dacron equivalent.
In the 29er we found the mylar sails (particularly the jib) did not last long at all. If looking at racing at the top of the fleet you would only get about 1 season out of a jib. The main wasn't so bad as it as it doesn't undergo the same forces and flogging as the jib. But you need to be careful of the quality of material being used. Also need to be a bit more careful with the handling of mylar sails. Most people would probably find that their sails contain creases from where the sail has kinked over on itself. This crease in a mylar sail can easily lead to a weak spot and the sail to eventually crack and split.
All in all, we only have small sails so any performance advantage would be minimal. Cost would be a little bit more expensive but then needs to be compared to the life of the sail. I believe a dacron jib would be better than a mylar jib but the mylar main would last a little better than the dacron main.
But again, which is better at getting more people into the class......More newer boats, happier people supporting the class, or new colourful sails?
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| | Re: Sail Types | Hey, great to see some debate about this topic...some good points from everyone. I think most will agree that changing to mylar sails will never insure the class against extinction but it's one idea that can be considered and as such is a valid as any other to come up for proposal.
We also need to remember that the world has changed and will continue to do so. We need to be as nimble and thoughtful as we can to adjust.
I think it's fair to say that the days of large numbers of amatuer builders are gone. How many home builds were done in the past two winters? 2 here in WA....3 this winter. It would be interesting to know how some successful classes with similar types of hulls etc are growing numbers ie Sabres, Impulses, Herons, Mirrors etc etc. Whats the mix of amateur v pro builders in their situations?
Here in WA we have been fortunate to have a close relationship with our Junior feeder class, the Pelican. There has also been some exceptional work done in regards to promotion, with articles and full colour pictures in the "Western Australian Newspaper".We also have hard working people at all our clubs who are real advocates for the class. This has seen a lift in competition numbers in the past two seasons.
So yes Derek, good old fashion hard work and sacrifice is where the key is but thoughtful progression will give longevity.
Even the 125 has had a tradition of progression....Wood to Glass & Composite, the addition of scuppers, the addition of case gaskets, vertical drop rudders etc. This demonstrates that if a good idea is proposed it can work and help with promotion of the class.
(I recall from the recesses of my days at Uni :Marketing 101, the 4 P's= Product, Promotion, Price, Placement)
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| | Re: Sail Types | Hey, I was one of the people who suggested the proposal of mylar sails to the Victorian assoc after spending alot of time with victoria's youth sailors. Being a 125 sailor myself (and only recently graduating from the junior division) I am always encoraging the kids to have a go in a 125. When I've spoken to the kids parents they have always been positive about the class but ultimately it is their child that will have the most sway on what class they will move into. Having coached these juinor sailors recently the comments I always get when promoting the 125 is all about how the 29ers look cool and modern compared to the 125. I belive that sail makers have indicated that mylar sails will not increase the performance or the cost of the 125. Surely updating the look of the 125 cannot be a bad thing if it is encoraging the next generation of youth sailors to be involved in 125s.
Also sabots these days also allow mylar sails, so moving up into a boat with 'older technology' is not appealing. I applaud everyone who has poured there free time and hard work into the class, these are the people who have helped stop the class going the way of boats like the 420 (almost never seen on Port Phillip bay, not sure about other parts of Austrailia)
Will Morris
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| | Re: Sail Types | Hey all,
I think a lot of valid points have been raised here, and the arguments for either side have been clearly stated, but overall I think the main focus is the direction of the class and how we are going to get young people sailing it.
Without new people coming into the class, it will die. It's been seen in many classes over the years. Why should we let it happen to us? As mentioned above, the youths are looking at the appearance of the class and how "cool" it looks. They're not worried about any slight cost occurrence (it's most likely their parents will be purchasing a majority of the boat anyway) and if they're just coming into the class this will be the conventional cost so the cost difference will be irrelevant to them. Mylar sails have been seen in the Sabot class for years now, none of us consider sabots to be skiffs, so it will make about as much a difference to 1255s as it has for them, and thatts if weere lucky after seeing the strong fleet sabots have.
For the point raised about the division of the class the sails won't be passed if there is any performance difference so weather Dacron or Mylar competition will still be at it's usual level if not higher (if what these sails are trying to do works).
All in all, I think we need to decide where our focus will be, we need to be aiming at getting the current generation into the class, or it will die out.
I really hope that just because a few people won't allow the class to evolve (even slightly) it results in the extinction of the class.
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