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 Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Yes Nick, 120-125 may be a good weight range in Victoria and South Australia, but in the other states where they don't cancel racing when the wind gets over 15knots a few more Kgs generally is a major advantage. Michael Eaton and Andrew Foster were well and truly at the highend of the weight range when they were cleaning up everything.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | The trick is to get the weight in the right place. I am an 85kg Crew with a 55kg skipper! So when I get my weight out of the boat in a QLD race that is over 15 knots, we are very fast!
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | 22 knots sustained is upper wind limit in vic. not 15 knots from recent nationals perth guys didn't seem very quick when it was windy. (on the day when racing was cancelled when we were sailing)
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | You Obviously weren't at South of Perth, Hervey Bay or Sunshine. I didn't attend the nationals this year so I can't comment on them, but at the Previous Victorian Nationals held at Mordialloc a race was canned due to a 20 knot breeze, Adelaide canned one in 18 knots in 2005, after starting two back to back races in less than 2 knots!!!. Down right pathetic. Then you get the opposite end of the scale, Perth started two races last year in 35+ knots. In my opinion the way it should be. Upper limits are for pussys, you should be able to sail in whatever comes at a national level, Instead we lower the standards of our class by pandering to pointless organisations like Sail Melbourne and YA, and what for? A few lousy dollars and our results posted on their website.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | If competitors in the recent National championships would like to email me with their combined weight (or helm and crew weights and heights) I will try to analyze weight vs placing and add it to this discussion
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | It would be interesting to have a field in the enty form asking the combined weight of the crew for statistical reasons. I don't think that the results would be a true indication of the effects of crew weight on a 125 though, as there is a fair difference in the performance of the newer fibreglass hulls compared with the older timber hulls, also there is a fair spread in the abilities of the sailors in the field. It would be interesting though.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | when johno and i sailed at this years nats we were 134kg and the series was light.... work on your sailing and boat set up and your results will always improve rather than dropping a few kgs...
i am glad sail melbourne is involved in 125s without their help a regatta, like the one we had, would not run as smoothly and professionally as others.
and for the record... the 35+ knt race in perth should never have been sailed it was dangerous and ignorant to race a fleet of 125s in that wind. the only people who disagree were the ones who had heavy crew weights....don't forget almost half the fleet did not finish!! 125s are not a high performance class we are a fun/family/trainer class.. if you want to race in that wind sail cats!! although there are not many clubs or classes that will sail in over 35+ at national level anymore.
damo when are your NSW states?? might be a small invasion from the north ha ha
chris ando
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | You guys are more than welcome to come! Just bring some breeze with you..!! Our states are on at Forster on the 17th & 18th of February. Camping is available near the club.
Tom and myself sailed at around 150kg at this years nats.
The ideal weight would be around 120-130kg but you can still be very competitive with anywhere between 110 and 150kg. As Chris said the important thing is how you sail your boat, use tactics and have your boat set up. IF your unsure how to set up your boat to best suit your crew weight there are plenty of people you can ask that are willing to help.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Chris I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the Perth race. I've had the same discussion with Doug on the matter and I've already stated my opinion is you have to sail in what comes at the time.
One of the big attractions of sailing in Perth for me is the fact that you're more often than not, going to be sailing in a strong breeze, breezes and conditions that 125s are well suited to.
Races are often cancelled for there being too much breeze, but rarely for there being too little. Which unfairly disadvantages heavier crews, and crews that have their heavy weather boat handling skills down pat. Skills that deserve to be rewarded at the national level.
Certainly at the Adelaide I was unfairly disadvantaged by carrying a larger crew, considering two races were held in less than two knots and a large proportion of the fleet did not compete either race. Then the following day one in 18 knots was cancelled, Now considering the expense of travelling all the way to Adelaide. Then having to drop two races and not sail when the conditions were more to our liking is extremly frustating.
Not too long ago it was the skippers responsibilty to decide wether or not it was safe to race or continue racing, now we have upper limits set a 22knots and pay a lot more in insurance. Whilst we have to accept that this is how it is now, do we have to like it.
I would also like to point out that neither Jamie Thompson, Mark Whittle or the mighty thunder boat can be considered heavyweights yet all of them conpleted the contentious Perth race.
The NSW states are on the weekend after next, If anyone needs a crew, I am available as my boat is not yet on the water.
If we go back to the origional point of this thread what is the ideal weight range I think most people would agree on 120-150kg.
Congatulations Chris on your recent nationals win and I look forward to seeing you at either Sunshine at Christmas or Forster in a couple of weeks time.
This is the last I will post on this subject, as it appears that my evil multiple personality as an internet troll is coming out far too often.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | For what it is worth, I will add my two bobs worth. I did not experience the Perth blower, but I agree with ando, 125's shouldn't race above 22knots. It is a family class and there is a much higher risk of injury or not enough rescue boats in conditions like this. There might be the odd gung ho who will race in conditions like this, but all competitors should not be required to put their boats and bodies at risk for the sake of a few.
Derek Miles
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| гороскоп григорий | Как мне переделать односторонний документ на двусторонний? Результатом информационных атак на любом уровне является дать противнику информацию, заставляющую его прекратить вооруженные действия. Вместо этого один из трех режимов записи позволяет изменить все 4 байта, на основании одного байта данных полученного от процессора. Процедура стратегии устройства требует только пяти строк.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | If I am not mistaken, most of those who sail 125's are family members with young people who are our children learning in the class and going on to sail competitively. I know there is A Div and B Div some of the time, but I think it is a bit foolhardy to discard the family element from national events. It depends on whether you want a few sailing nationals, (the racers), or do you want to include as many as possible who sail states and clubs to participate so you have decent size fleets at nationals. That is an issue that the association needs to address. We were all young once, but I have to say, when I was younger, I was far happier seeing the families and older members of the fleet participate than to think that the nationals was only for the fit and young.
I always remember when I was running marathons in my 30s and 40s that Deek Costella said he admired all participants and especially those who took 3 to 4 hours to complete the course.
Derek Miles
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Steve, that is not what I am really getting at. I agree that new sailers are not the ones to participate in Nationals. However, my daughter has been sailing for 3 years and is 15. She is competitive and could sail in a nationals, however, I would not be happy for her to sail in a 35knot race. I am 54 and still sail and sail in states. Because I am not happy about sailing in 35knot winds, does this preclude me from sailing in the nationals? Bearing in mind that I have been sailing competitively for over 30 years. Nationals should be for all sailers at a certain level of experience without the need to expose our physical well being and exposing our craft to damage by allowing races to proceed in nationals where the winds exceed 25 knots. Even young and even very highly experienced sailers should not be exposed to conditions like this.
So, I still maintain that everyone should be encouraged to sail nationals (being sensible about how much experience participants have) without there being a risk that they may have to race in conditions that winds exceed 25knots. I still maintain that the 125 was designed as a family class boat that has a bit more performance than a heron (and I sailed herons for many years in nationals) and was never designed as a high performance boat with the ability to safely sail in extreme conditions. I sailed 125's since 1977 and always felt that the backbone of the class was the families. Please don't let this change because nothing destroys a class more than people trying to make it something that it is not. If you want high performance, look at a 29er or a 49er.
Derek Miles
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | And just one more thing. Just look at the entry from Bob Sayer regarding the 30th anniversary. Lourdes Hill College has been a great feeder source for the class for many years. It has produced many great performers in nationals (Jenny Anderson) most recently. This is the message I am trying to get across about the family component of the class. You run races in 35knots and you run the risk of frightening these young people away (and causing the early retirement of people like me).
Derek Miles
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Ok I can't help myself here, So Derek you're saying that the shananigans at Adelaide and the recent nationals were a good thing for 125's, and that having your kids bobbing around in less than 2 knots and 30+ degree heat is for the good of the class. This senario seems to be happening far too much in recent times. I agree that the family element of the 125 is a good thing, but you need to let your more capable sailors have a little fun once in a while. The big race in Perth was just one race. Your fifteen-year-old daughter could have sat it out and it still would not have affected the her series. Remember the responsiblity lies with the skipper as to decide wether it is safe to sail. We should welcome and cater for all commers in the class but not dumb it down in the process. As for your comments about 29ers and 49ers, I wouldn't go near anything that the Bethwaite family are involved in. 29ers are total dogs of boats if you aren't inside the tiny weight envolope. 49ers are a heap of overpriced poorly built crap as well. The beauty of the 125 is that it is very low cost, You can be way outside the weight envolope and still be competitive and the things really get up and go.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Damian, I am out of my depth here on historical conditions of the last couple of nationals and I have been enlightened by Graham Brown on the facts of conditions of the last 2 nationals. I only got the 35knots from previous discussions in this forum. I also know nothing about 49ers and 29ers and have only seen a couple sailing and associated them with performance and only used them to illustrate my comments. I agree about the 2 knots and this is no fun. It brings me back to a heron nationals I sailed on Lake Bonney SA many years ago when most of the races were in 2 knots and 40+ degree temperatures and agree it is no fun. Also, I am not at all trying to take the fun out of sailing, lets face it, that is why we took the sport up. Damain, I responded to Grahams email and if you send me your email address I will copy you in. My main concern is the safety aspect and the risk of legal litigation against the organisers of events, and, keeping the class available as a family class whether it is two brothers sailing, two sisters, dad and child etc, but on the other hand keeping the class attractive to those who want a bit of exilation as well. So look out for Damian on the water?
Derek
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | I have not sailed in 2 seasons but I am slowly building a boat when work loads allow. I am not the best sailor but i have always gone in every single race. I have sailed in some big winds and not always big winds in a race but just for a sail beofore the race for practise.
I think that a big wind is great fun I work on the water and find that taking even a power boat out in big winds and rough conditions is a must. why be on the water for only calm weather it makes no sense to me you. As long as you have good fittings and can swim and a bit of commonsense then what is the problem in going out in a big wind.
If a bunch of people get together and say that you can not sail in those winds well that is crap to me as it should be up to the people on each boat to make the choice not people on another boat that dont want to sail in big winds making that choice for you. I dont see why you should pussy foot through life get in have a go and enjoy all winds. IF the wind is too strong for you pull out but dont let you pulling out effect us by not being able to go out.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | I haven't been racing 125's for very long, but I've been sailing various dinghies since I was eight. I don't feel that there is any need to sail in conditions above 25knots - that is exhilirating enough for the heavier/more experienced crews.
I was at the Perth Nationals (which were my first nationals) and therefore 35 knots was a bit over the top for me. It's nothing to do with 'pussyfooting around', some of the best sailors in the class pulled out/were forced to retire from that race.
The thing I love about 125's is that not everyone is trying to be 'the best'. Some people just enjoy racing and come along to competitions like the nationals just for the fun of it, and they don't really care where they place. They should be allowed to come to the nationals. That is the good thing about this class - anyone who wants to race can, it's not about 'you have to be the best in the class to race'. Yet if you are racing in 35 knots they are not going to come.
I'm not saying we should hold every race in less than 2 knots of breeze either, that is just ridiculous. There should be a variety of conditions up to an appropriate limit (around 25knots) to suit all competitors.
Someone said that the Nationals is not the place to teach kids to sail, I agree with that. However, it can be the place to consolodate the lessons they've learnt and practice their skills. I learnt more at the nationals than I've ever learnt on the weekend sailing at club. These people are not trying to come first, they just want the experience. They should not be frightened away.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | jeeez damo what have you started... haha
i have sailed in some windy races and some very light races and to tell you the truth i find it harder to RACE in less than two knots than in 35. but a lot more fun in heavy stuff.... all you have to do in 35 is not capsize and you can usually do ok...
but i think what we are all trying to say is that it is dangerous and irresponsible to race a fleet like 125s in over 35 knots...
thats not too say racing at a national level shouldn't be a challange. thats what nationals are for.. to test your skills over a range of conditions but not when it can become dangerous.. sadly death and injury do happen in our sport even in our own class...
and at next nationals when it blows over 35 and only a few boats go out, how can you call that a national race when you only have a couple of blokes sailing that are fat enough to swing it down...
maybe a couple of my etchell mates should sail a series...but only race that one race in over 35+!!!! bet that will look good too..
i say cancel a race in over 30 and sail the next day.. it's usually still windy the next day anyway (except SA) haha
chris ando
ps see all you blues on the weekend hope its not raining down there.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | I think that 30 knots is a much more sensible line in the sand than the 22knots that was imposed on the recent nationals. I think that if are upper limits are imposed, perhaps there should be lower limits set as well, say at 5 knots. This would help prevent another debacle like the one at Adelaide. Of the two contentious issues, The Adelaide one was by far the most damaging to the class.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Here here Chris Ando.
I think this topic has well and truly broken the record for the number of respondents and I think it is fabulous that there are many who have an opinion on this subject. Well done guys.
The upper limit is for safety. Now we seem to be getting to some consensus on what that upper limit should be. We might not all agree but it seems that we may all agree that there should be some limit below 30knots. So in the scheme of things I guess that there is not a huge impact when we are talking about 5 knots.
Now for the lower limit. I think this is covered by the race time limit of 3 hours (I think). So, everyone should be able to sail in 2 knots (and this requires a different skill) and if you cannot finish in the 3 hours then at least you weren't kept on the water all day in the blazing sun. But most importantly, you are not placed in a dangerous situation and your life and limb and boat is not in any danger except running the risk of having your brains cooked. Refer to Grants comments about camelbacks (and I still haven't gotten to the bottom of this one because Grant has declined to commment further). But wear a hat and have plenty of water and you are well equipped to sail 2 knots.
Derek Miles
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Re the wind limits.
Lots of good opinions.
Does the NEC have a definite position on this? (minimum & maximum wind range)
Do the organizers @ nationals have a set limitation (max & min)and are they allowed to alter this for the event.
Heard some disgruntlement from Vic Nat with races not sailed in over 18? knots.
I am going to Lake Mac. and need to know if this is going to be sorted so I can sort out my boat.
Don't need to drive across the country for 4 days to find that the ball park has or can be changed.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Greg, In Victoria the upper limits set by Yachting Victoria are 22 kn for on or offshore winds, 26kn for inland waters. At the recent Nationals the races were not sailed on those occasions when the wind was 26-36+ kn on the lake.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | I agree totally about a upper wind limit! after sailing in Perth in 35 knots I must say that is an experience I dont want to repeat. however I have no problem sailing in 20-25 knots.
The blue book states that 'it is the responsibility of the skipper to start or to continue racing'. this is all well and good if you can see what the conditions are. In Perth we could not see how windy it was from the club as it was fairly well sheltered. by the time we reached the start we could see how windy it was. We ended up pulling out at the top mark, however due to the wind strength and direction and we capsized and suffered gear damage.
Had we known how windy it was we would not have gone out! I Feel it is responsibility of the hosting club to have weather breifings before each race. In Paynesville this was very well done, and while we were dissapointd about not sailing, the races that were canned was a very good call!
I also agree that there should be a lower wind limit as well, sailing in the middle of summer in no wind is a recipe for dehydration. (Yes Derek camel backs would be great to prevent this, but they are not leagal under the current rules)
If a competitors meeting was held before every race then a decisiion could be made to sail in marginal condiions (too light/too heavy)
If we work with the officials we can all have a fantastic regatta. As it is the official have a lot to do and do a fantastic job to enable us the competitors to have a great time.
Cheers
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | not bad grant... i think its a great idea to hold a meeting of all competitors before any race.. this might stirr the pot a bit more.....
maybe hold a meeting where the wind is forcast to be over 22knts or when the race committe deems it marginal racing (eg in adelaide or mooloolaba where big swell can occur in only 20knts) .
skippers and crew can only have one vote each and can vote whether or not to race... however this result can only be a recommendation to the race committe not a final decision.... but if the majority vote not to race and they decide to go ahead anyway and someone gets hurt, than they might end up in a bit of a trouble.... at least this way everyone gets a say including the WA guys who love the strong breeze....
this system might disadvantage the good heavy weather racers a tiny bit but this will allow everyone to have a fair and even say in whether or not they race... if you are too heavy then thats a price you pay for sailing a small boat..
the decision to race crap in the blue book and "we take no responsibility...." attitude mean nothing. when a committe deems it safe to start a race in strong breeze then all sailors are now under the care of the starter and the rescue personal... if something happens then they are the ones who will have to answer to the people.. not the skipper who went out to start....
chris ando
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Grant?
Camelbacks are permitted under the ERS and fall into "personal equipment weight".
They are permited for Sailboards.
You have a total of 8kg of wet weight and any pocket capable of being filled and holding water shall be filled and included in the wet weight measurement method.
If you are a lightweight crew combo, put on some good water holding clothing up to 8kg.(make sure you read the ERS manual for the method used)
And no, you will not sink. Water in clothing has neutral bouyancy.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Sorry to bring an ancient forum out of the grave but I've been overseas for a while and hadnt visited this site and there are a few points that need clearing up about the apparent 35knot+ race in Perth a couple of years back.
The breeze at the start of the race was only 26 knots constant and the highest gust of the entire day was 32 knots and that was recorded 200m from the start boat. Prior to the start of the race following the setting of the course the PRO, chairman of the race committee and the rear commodore regatta all discussed if the conditions were suitable and all agreed. The oldest skipper in the fleet that also had the youngest crew of the fleet finished the race.
There was also a crew that sailed a 125 for the first time in the invitation race that finished after only capsizing twice.
At no stage during the race was anyone in any sort of danger and extra rescue boats were brought onto the course just for the race in question.
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| Re: What is the ideal weight range for a 125 ? | Greg, Grant is right that camelbacks are not allowed (except for sailboards).
Rule 43.1 (a) says:
"Competitors shall not wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purpose of increasing their weight".
And you may be able to argue that you are carrying it to drink not increase weight except that in
the casebook, Case 89 says:
"A competitor may not wear or otherwise attach to his person a beverage container."
ISAF 1997/1
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