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125 Discussion Forum
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Return to the Forum List  Rudders | Heard discussion about having dagger style rudder boxes.
Good idea, but there would not be much blade left in the water!
Could the rules change to allow any type of rudder/box configuration but set a limit of depth below hull as per center board?
There would be no performance advantage between pivoting, dagger or fixed! You could make your decision based on what suits your conditions.
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| | Re: Rudders | Greg,
If the use of drop down rudders is passed by the NEC this year then we will measure the extension of the rudder blade in much the same way that we measure the centerbaord extension from the hull. The thickness of the rudder blade will be unchanged. this also has a nunmer of advantages for the pivoting blades as we can get more of the head of rudder blade in the box with the maximum extension from the hull.
If you have any questions refer to the adjenda for the 2006-2007 National confrence as the full submission in there or contact me (it was a QLD submission)
Grant
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| | Re: Rudders | With my experience of using both types of board i have found that in windy weather and large waves Dagger Style boards can become very dangerous as you come into the beach, as if you suddenly run aground the only way of not ripping your transom off is to capsize, where as if you use the currently used swing style board it will simply rise as it rubs against the ground. Also I have found no difference between the two performance wise.
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| | Re: Rudders | Haydn, I agree with your point about coming into the beach. That is definatly something to consider.
On the flip side however, it would be nice to actually be able to steer when leaving the shore (esp in windy weather) as opposed to needing a lot of strength to stop the boat going completely out of control because the blade is all the way up.
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| | Re: Rudders | I use to be a shocker in getting off the beach, struggling to control my boat with the rudder up. I sat back one day and watched the pros do it. They were relaxed, most stood up and just eased the sails on to get themselves sailing off the beach. I think if skippers, practiced more to sail with their feet (used the hull to steer with) and the balance of the pressure in the sails, many people would not be struggling to control their boats while the rudder is up. Food for thought and comment
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| | Re: Rudders | I agree with you Barry. When I sailed Herons (heaven forbid) we learnt to sail without a rudder at all. So you are right, you can sail a 125 off the beach without rudder until you have depth to put it down. However, I think that the pivot rudder has many advantages over the dagger. Sailing through jelly fish is one that comes to mind. If you hit anything with a dagger board, you will rip the transom off which is a much bigger job to fix than you would otherwise need to have with a pivoting board.
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| | Re: Rudders | My personal view regarding dagger v. pivot not sure, although I tend to believe keep the status quo if the thing ain't broke. My point was, many sailors will try to get off the beach without thinking. They sheet on hard, trying to get over the shore break with little or no center-board. The harder the wind blows, the worse it gets with the sailors and boat being dragged leeward without the lateral resistance of the CB. To counteract this they put all the force into rudder, aimlessly trying to correct for a simple mistake.
The simple reality is all this effort can be avoided, by keeping things simple.
1. Give plenty of time to get off the beach, not 5 minutes before the warning signal. (I have done this many times)
2. Don't over sheet, the boat will steer itself if sheeted properly. Put the jib on harder to bear away from the wind. Conversly, pull on to the main if you want to head to wind (Used to oversheet until Jamie spoke at a training day about allowing the boat to breath)
3. A boat not over sheeted, with have little leeward drift and can be corrected with 10% CB down. (This is an easy one)
4. Correct any steering issues with the side to side balance of the boat, this can be best done standing up. I use to watch a really competitive fireball sailor just step into his boat and sail thorough a really tricky reef down at Somers. He never got his feet wet and sailed with his rudder out of the water. Tiller between his knees swinging freely. Never realise what he was doing till I tried it. He was transferring his weight to change the hull shape under water, thereby changing the drag of the hull.
Anyway, comments on the above and any tips warmly welcome. The above description is not definitive and not meant to muddy the waters on the debate about rudder design. It just there to highlight some of the techniques to use when you can not get your rudder down.
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| | Re: Rudders | Derreck if you hit anything with a pivot rudder with the locking pin inserted, the effect is going to be the same as with a drop rudder. The big advantage of the drop rudder is going to be when you're going fast, you won't have the issue of the rudder pivoting slightly and becoming extremely heavy and hard to control. Even with a locating pin fitted this continues to be a problem as the holes tend to elongate after a few races.
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| | Re: Rudders | with a dagger board you will find that even if you have a box that is the perfect size the board will still move same as the swing style after a few races.
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